Unleashing AI to Scale Happiness and Loyalty at BARK

Joseph: Welcome, Hernan and Nari, to Radically Personal. I’m so excited to have you both here. Welcome.

Hernan: Thank you. Thanks, Joseph. Excited to be here.

Nari: Thank you Joseph for having us. Super excited to be here.

Joseph: I am really excited to have this conversation. First of all, just for our listeners, Nari is the Chief Technology Officer of BarkBox, and Nari and I have known each other for a few years. He was the CTO over at Crate & Barrel before this, and I’m excited to work together again. And Hernan, this is our first time working together, and you have the best title of anyone I’ve ever seen. Hernan is the Servant of the Pups and the People, and I think that is such a great title. Well, why don’t we start — Hernan, you could tell us a little bit about the BarkBox story.

Hernan: Absolutely. So BARK was founded about 12 years ago by Matt Meeker, Carly Strife, and Henrik Werdelin on the notion that at the time, Matt had a little puppy, a great dane named Hugo, for which he could not find the right toys or treats for Hugo living in New York City. And that inspired those three to create a company whose mission is to make all dogs happy, and that’s who we are at BARK. We’re primarily known for a product called BarkBox, which took us to market. But since then, we’ve launched many other product lines. Again, centered on helping dog parents and making dogs happy.

Joseph: That’s great. What do they say — that necessity is the mother of all invention, right? If you can’t figure out a way to keep your dog happy, let’s start a company around it.

Hernan: That’s it.

Joseph: Right. In our prep discussions, we talked a lot about various things, but one of the things that struck me the most was this mantra: “No dog left behind.” And maybe you all can describe what that means. What is that about? What are some good stories about how that comes to life at BARK?

Hernan: I love that. I love to tell that story. So, the ethos of “no dogs left behind” was centered around us finding a way to give our team some direction in taking extreme ownership and accountability of each experience and how we serve dog parents and the pups we love. And I think the story that you’re referring to is one around a customer that not only had pups but also had a potbelly pig, and they had understandably great sensitivity around treats arriving with pork products. And it was a very unique ask, but we completely understood. And so we took it upon ourselves to start packing this customer’s box monthly in our customer support office because, at the time, our fulfillment center just wasn’t set up for that type of experience.

Joseph: So it’s actually not “no dogs left behind,” it’s like “no dogs or pigs left behind.”

Hernan: That’s right, that’s right. But it’s a great example where, again, BARK empowers our Happy Team, our customer experience team, to serve the uniqueness of each dog parent and in each dog.

Joseph: And I think one of the things I’ve noticed in our conversations is your intentionality about how you name things. So I started with your title, Hernan, and no, it doesn’t mean your title isn’t great, too — being CTO is also very specific — but Servant of the Pups is such a great title, and you don’t refer to people as dog owners; you refer to them as dog parents. You refer to your team as the Happy Team. One of the things that we talk about a lot at Gladly is we don’t really like the word “agent” or “customer service agent” — we call them heroes.

Hernan: Love that. Love that.

Joseph: Yeah. So when you think about your intentionality, when you think about this concept of “no dogs left behind,” there are very intentional things not only to the culture but also, you think about that process. So, walk through the intentionality of your engagement with customers and dog parents and how you think about that whole life cycle.

Hernan: Yeah, absolutely. It is important to note, first and foremost, that when we hire, we’re hiring only dog lovers, and we make a point to try to screen for that. Obviously, we’re looking for someone who could multitask, be a problem solver, and have high EQ to be able to have compassion and empathy. But that’s the key part of the secret sauce — hiring dog lovers who could relate to a fellow dog lover, a dog parent we serve. So, first and foremost, it is important to note that. Secondly, we really try to be in tune with where this dog parent is in their journey. Is this their fourth dog — we have customers with four or five dogs in their pack — or is it a first-time dog parent picking up their puppy at a foster or rescuing it? So that’s important to understand. And so we’ve tried to find, throughout that journey, these, if you will, opportunities to connect with these customers, understand where they’re at, but also where their dog is at.

So one example of that — we have this welcome chat experience that as soon as you enroll in a subscription, we will seek out and try to connect with you to make sure again that we have all the details that are pertinent to making sure that we’re delivering the best experience for you and your pup from month one, specifically, if we’re talking about your BarkBox or your Super Chewer Box. The stats that we’ve seen there have been remarkable. Our customer satisfaction scores on that experience, weekly 98-plus-some percent. Modification rates as we connect, as, again, fellow dog lovers understanding where this dog parent is — modifying around 30 to 40% of the initial price subscription of what they enrolled in after. Right, we’re getting information from them and guiding them through what the ideal experience might be for them.

Joseph: So basically, I sign up for the subscription, I start this initial chat, and you’re trying to know and understand who people are.

Hernan: Absolutely.

Joseph: And so it is about that for us. We talk about this idea of making service radically personal. You are really focused on: how do you engage, how do you know who they are. And you’re bringing that relationship to life day one, moment one, actually second one.

Hernan: Exactly.

Joseph: Nari, when you think about technology, how do you think about marrying this? You have such a strong ethos around that personal engagement, “no dog left behind,” thinking through all the touch points. Oftentimes, people will say, well, if you apply technology to this, it’s going to make it impersonal. But you’re actually figuring out how to leverage technology to make it even more personal, to do this at scale. How do you marry those two things together?

Nari: That’s where Hernan’s and my team’s partnership shines. As Hernan mentioned, we index on folks who understand dogs really well on both sides. And what we do — I’ll give an example of something that we have done — when you indicate what kind of breed your dog is, we try to marry it up to the right Happy Ambassador who has the same breed. That’s a way of leveraging technology to see who is the right person to connect with that customer to offer the best level of service.

Joseph: And one of the things I thought was most interesting when we started working together was the idea of spending all this energy and effort to hire people that are dog lovers and dog parents themselves to be part of the Happiness Team. You know, a great example of leveraging technology — leveraging things like People Match and Gladly to say — “Hey, these dog parents, we know they have a lab, so we’re going to understand who from our team has a lab and try to connect them together” is such a great example of actually how you do that at scale. And it’s always been, I think, a great example of how you can deliver personalized service at scale. That’s a lot of the key to it. Is there an interesting example of that journey, going back to the idea of no pups, “no dogs left behind?” There are times when things go great, so that welcome experience is fantastic.

You have high engagement and incredible NPS, but what do you think about when stuff goes sideways? Because I always tell people working with Gladly, there are two things I can promise — number one, something will go wrong. And if any tech company ever says, “oh no, nothing ever goes wrong,” they’re totally lying; you should kick them out of your room and end the Zoom meeting right there. But stuff goes wrong, and how you respond I think is the most important thing. So at Gladly, we try really, really hard to just be incredibly responsive and to be there when stuff goes wrong. We own it; we communicate. What do you think about that? Because it’s always easy to talk about when stuff goes right, but what do you think about the sideways situation?

Hernan: Love that question. I would say that we put a great deal of effort into making sure that we’re communicating proactively with our customer if there is a hiccup in their experience, be it through a shipping hiccup or a product hiccup. And nurturing that relationship and that trust goes a long way with your customer. I’ll give you an example of that. It’s pretty common when a brand service — be it a retailer or a restaurant — reaches out for feedback. It’s pretty uncommon to hear it back if you gave favorable or unfavorable feedback. We make a point to comb through all the net promoter score survey feedback. Wherever there’s an actionable opportunity to improve an experience, we reach out to those customers and make it right. The same goes with if you have an interaction with our team that you rate unfavorably in our customer satisfaction survey; we will make a point to reach out to you and try to understand where we could have handled that differently and turn that around. So I’d say there are many touch points that we’re actively seeking to turn a learning experience into a better experience for you as a customer. But I’d say, yeah, it’s really remarkable that, again, BARK puts the investment in this. Oftentimes, you’ll ask 10 CEOs, “Do you want to give great experiences?” But how that translates really, really varies. So, a big shout out to our founders that they saw this as a potential differentiator for us as a brand from day one.

Nari: In addition to what Hernan said, I have to say that BARK wouldn’t be where it is today without the Happy Team, Hernan, and Hernan’s leadership. Because as we’ve grown, to Hernan’s point, they have been the backstop at listening to customers, understanding what they want, and fixing issues for us, which has helped us learn from our customers and provide a much better experience over time.

Joseph: And I think that’s the thing that is — oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Hernan: Too kind, Nari, too kind.

Joseph: There’s a little love fest going on in this podcast this morning. I love it. What I think is really important is that you understand that service today is truly a differentiator. I will put some words here; you can disagree with me if I don’t hit the mark on this. And I think the reason is because — especially in your business, which is a subscription — loyalty and retention are the key drivers of success. And so service is at the forefront of driving that loyalty and engagement. And for a business that’s a digital business, the only people that your dog parents speak to and engage with is the Happiness Team. So, they are not just the back office issue resolution team. That’s why I love that you call the Happiness Team. It’s like they’re the Happy Team. Their goal is to create that loyalty, engagement, and emotional connection, which I think is the future of how everyone should think about service. And you guys are far down that journey already, which is awesome.

Hernan: That’s very kind, and I agree with what you said. The way we translate that to our team, to our Happy Ambassadors, is back to our mission, which is very simple and easy to digest. And I think a lot of brands can hopefully take note of this, not overcomplicating things. Our mission is to make all dogs happy. And if we’re giving that guidance to our ambassadors, we’re not saying, “Hey, our job is to keep customers for at least 12 months in their subscription.” We’re saying,

“Let’s truly figure this out. How can we understand what the needs are of this pup? What are the needs of this dog parent? And what is that path?” Be it a different assortment, a different style of play, or allergy restrictions, we’re going to do whatever we can to figure out and support the team in making sure that they have the right technologies for that.

Joseph: One of the challenges is that it’s often easy to do that when the team is small. When you’re all sitting around in the small office, sitting around the table, it’s easy to do the special packaging of the box for someone with a dog or a pig. When you think about how to scale that, so much of it is about training and enablement and the culture of the team. Because what typically happens at companies — and you guys are hundreds of people — you’re big. What typically happens is that, as you get bigger, people put in the process, they’re like, here’s the way you need to do this, follow these 17 steps, and if you don’t do that, you’re going to get fired or whatever. You talked a little about recruiting people who are dog lovers. How do you train and enable the team and give them the right amount of independence so that as you scale this, that continues to happen? How do you do that? Because that’s hard.

Hernan: Yeah, no, it’s an amazing question. So yeah, we’ve gone through our growing pains, if you will. You use that example of us building boxes that started from four customers, and it grew to 30, and we’re like, oh, goodness, we need help. And quickly and quickly, different functional areas mobilize. We had Nari’s team that was present at a table. We had partners in our supply chain and our planning team. And just generally speaking, there’s this culture that exists at BARK where everybody — which as the “service guy,” it’s really great for me to see — that it’s pretty easy to get that support when it’s all kind of in center to serving our customer and serving our pups the best we can. And that program, that tailored program went from five to 30 to 350,000+, which is amazing to see what you can accomplish when different functional areas are willing to work together.

Joseph: And Nari, when you think about it from a technology standpoint and thinking about that scaling, thinking about going from hundreds of thousands to millions, how do you think about retaining that core cultural value when you are trying to layer in — and we’ve had lots of conversations about this — AI and automation? How do you get your team to understand — everyone thinks, okay, the customer service team, they’re the Happy Team, but it’s really a company thing. It’s actually a company value. How does that connect to recruiting tech talent and engaging them, building the culture of the team? What do you think about that?

Nari: Sure. So, as Hernan said, the core mission in terms of making dogs happy is part of any interview that we conduct across the organization, not just in Hernan’s team. How do we understand that empathetic nature? So, dog parents, in general, are very empathetic. And so that’s what makes for a wonderful team culture at BARK. And as Hernan said, everyone chips in to figure out how we solve the problems for our customers. And when we think about any solution, whether it’s AI or even regular solutions, we partner closely across different teams, whether it’s Hernan’s team, whether it’s supply chain and ops, to see what the outcome needs to be and what might be the best way to do it. So, even though AI can potentially replace humans in some contexts, we have been very deliberate in the choice of tools and how they can help assist our Happy Ambassadors because they are the front and center in terms of how our customers interact with us. So, we have always been deliberate in the choice of tools and partner with Hernan’s team to deploy those so that we can learn from them and improve as well.

Joseph: Yeah, the approach we think about here is — how do you deliver personalization and automation and marry the two together? I think there’s this big debate out there right now of, “Hey, GPT is going to replace every single person,” and it’s amazing what it already does. We’re actually shipping some stuff this week on top of GPT and helping to make the heroes more effective and more efficient with editing, writing, and summaries. Absolutely. And to actually deliver a better experience. And I think that that’s actually the key of marrying that happiness with technology together. And what I love about all our conversations is the blend of how you both are trying to do that. I think your ability to unlock that will unleash the next set of scale for the future, which I think is awesome. Is there an example of something recently where someone on the team was like, “Hey, we need to do something differently,” and drove change to deliver a better experience? And how do you foster that? How do you make that OK? You know what I’m getting at — you’ve got tons and tons of people on your team — what’s something that’s evolved and come out of the Happy Team that’s changed how the company works?

Hernan: Yeah, I smile as you ask that because I can think of a number of those examples. One program that we’re really, really proud of is called the Pup Companion Experience, and it’s essentially a grief support experience for dog parents who’ve lost a pup. And essentially, they’re reaching out because they’re saying, “Hey, I want to cancel my services because I lost my dog.” We quickly found out that a lot of our dog parents didn’t have an ample support group of people who could relate to the bond that they had with their pup. And so oftentimes, we would see our team members sharing that emotional load with that customer, and that gave us the confidence to seek out someone to give us a bit more formal grief support training. And we launched that program. And so today, that program has been around for at least seven years. We’ve served thousands of customers, not only BARK customers but we’ve even spoken to customers that just heard about it through a friend. It’s a key example where, based on team member feedback, we were able to, again, put together an experience collaboration with different functional areas and be there at probably one of the more critical times for a dog parent.

Joseph: Right. That’s such a great example. It’s probably not the thing you were thinking about during the company’s early days, like, we’re going to be there when, sadly, someone’s dog passes. And so what happened? So you obviously were getting people calling or contacting you, chatting, emailing, whatever, saying, “I want to cancel my subscription.” The team would ask why, and then they would say, “Well, my dog passed.” That’s such an incredible moment of connection and to think about, okay, how do you actually make it part of the core cultural values and approach for how you engage? I’m sure it has tons of benefits because someone who was once a dog owner is probably a dog parent for life. And so that connection is just super powerful.

Hernan: Absolutely. And these conversations between fellow dog lovers reinforce the importance of us and how we hire, and hiring someone who could genuinely relate to the emotional weight of the dog parent during that time. And oftentimes, those conversations lead to, “Well, I was battling with some health issues, and seeing my dog happy during these times was the bright light that you brought to my life during a very difficult chapter.” So those are very, very unique and memorable experiences that we’re able to see as a customer experience team. And again, I am very grateful to BARK and our founders for believing in those types of experiences. I’ll say it again — you ask 10 CEOs if they want to give a great experience, and the way that translates will vary a great deal.

Joseph: Absolutely. And there’s another program you mentioned to me, the Card Art Program. I just thought it was a super unique way of creating that connection, whether it’s in a moment of grieving or just a positive moment. Explain more about what that is.

Hernan: Yeah, of course. So, the Card Art Team is essentially based out of Columbus, Ohio, and we also have the team in the Philippines. But here in Columbus, it started when we accidentally attracted some great artists because we have an art school nearby. And we’d see team members in between interactions — they would do art. And if you know a dog lover, they’re not shy about sharing pictures of their dog. So it’s common, it’s so common to see our customers sending pictures of their dogs, how they interact with our toys, and often share some really great anecdotes with that. But we started sending out card art, and we were really surprised with all the buzz it would get online. And we built a team around it.

Joseph: So, what is card art?

Hernan: Sorry. Yeah, that’s the point. So, it’s essentially an artist creating a portrait of your dog. You share a picture with us randomly, and we will surprise and delight you with a portrait of your dog. And it’s different artists, so it’s different styles. There’s not one set style, but it’s essentially, yeah, we’re helping dog parents turn their dogs into a cartoon. Or if it’s something a little more heavy in nature and emotional, we will send a portrait instead of a cartoon. But yeah, we have some pretty talented artists that we’re very lucky to have.

Joseph: That’s great. It’s just another way of making that human connection, that very emotional connection to people. That’s awesome.

Hernan: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Nari: I was going to say, maybe you can also share about the Moving Concierge, which was another idea.

Joseph: Oh, yeah.

Nari: It’s such a stressful moment.

Hernan: I’ll say this again. We’re very lucky that BARK believes in investing in these experiences and engagement differentiators. We have a program called Moving Concierge, where, as we all know, moving is probably one of the top 10 most stressful events in our lives. And so through some of that feedback and hearing through our own team members’ experiences, we said, “Wow, we can help dog parents with that move.” So we’ll research any customer who moves across state lines. We’ll research the highly rated vets, dog parks, restaurants, bars, and groomers. We’ll also give them tips to help the dog acclimate to their new home. We also have another program called BARK Love, where any dog parent affected by a natural disaster, we’ll proactively check up on them and see if they need anything and if dogs in the area need some help. Oftentimes, that’s led to a pretty generous donation of food or product. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, we’re doing our best to accompany the dog parent and the pup through this journey of life. And we know things don’t go perfectly, but having someone who could really understand your bond with your dog and relate to these ups and downs that life presents comes in handy at times.

Joseph: And clearly empowering the team culturally and emotionally is awesome. Obviously, technically empowering the team is also really important. And you made the decision to move from — I won’t say who — a legacy ticketing tool to something like Gladly. Nari, what was the thinking there? Why? What do you see in the value of that? How does the technology support that mission of creating that human connection?

Nari: Sure. So when it comes to what we were looking for is to further the experiences our Happy Ambassadors can bring our customers. And to do that, you need to think beyond just a case or a ticket. To your point, how are you thinking about the relationship with the customer, the relationship with the dog? And so that was one of the things we were looking for as we were looking to transition from a legacy set of tools. And the idea was in one snapshot, whether the customer reaches out by email, SMS, or chat, how do you get a quick snapshot of what the customer is looking for? What have we interacted with the customer on, and how do we service that customer more quickly? And that’s the kind of interaction that we would want. To my point earlier, AI or technology should help Hernan’s team do a more effective job and get to the root of what they’re trying to help the customer with, rather than spend time going across multiple different solutions to figure out the data. That should not be what they spend their time on, and that was the intent behind moving to Gladly as well.

Joseph: Well, we’re proud to be on the journey together. And it’s always great when you have that strategic mind connection or mind meld in terms of how to think about stuff. I think that marrying strategy with technology is the key. And I think sometimes people get that a little bit backward. It’s like, oh, let’s get some technology and then figure out the strategy. You guys have been very deliberate on the strategy in looking for technology and products and partners to figure out how to support that. And we’re super proud to be on that journey together.

The name of the podcast is Radically Personal, and one of the questions I ask everybody is, can you share something radically personal about yourselves that people might not know? And people have told some crazy stuff. We’ve had the fact that someone would have their first child announced on the show. People have talked about the first rock concert they went to. People talk about fights they got into in high school and how that made them who they are today. But maybe Hernan, if you want to start, what’s something unique about you, your background experience that defines who you are today?

Hernan: Yeah, um…

Joseph: I knew I was going to get you.

Hernan: Yeah, I’m laughing at it. I think it takes me back to two key people in my life. First and foremost, I’ll say my mother. My parents were entrepreneurs and had different businesses. I just remember my summers as a kid being bummed out because I couldn’t be on the playground and had to be there supporting my parents, but I didn’t understand the lesson at that time. But I understand it now really well as an adult. And just seeing how my parents were a stickler for customer service being in a gas station in a mechanic business. And their guidance as parents, just having really good manners, always stuck with me to a point where I’d go to my friends’ homes, and their parents were like, “Oh man, this kid is uptight.”

Joseph: Uptight. You’re so polite.

Hernan: Yeah, exactly.

Joseph: Thank you.

I actually think that there’s a lot to be said for that, and being around that — my parents were immigrants — and I just remember those early stories with my parents, my grandparents who literally came to this country on a boat. It instills core values in terms of who you are today, which is an incredibly kind, empathetic person.

Hernan: And then the second thing is I lost my biological father really at an early age. And I think it gave me an appreciation for making sure that you value everybody in your life. And I’m kind of known in some circles to be maybe overly affectionate and just voicing how I feel about people. Life’s too short for you not to express how you feel about someone. As I say, how I serve my team or how I serve our customers. We each have a responsibility to make the world a little better each day. I’m not saying you come up with the solution to world peace, but again, through action and example, there is a way for us to do that collectively. So that’s how I live my life.

Joseph: Every journey starts with a small step and by taking that small step every single day, you’re making the world a better place. And so I think that’s so good. And Nari, what about you? Something radically personal.

Nari: So I was going to mention about my first job. So, I visited a friend in Cambridge and happened to come across a small startup. I went and interviewed with them. The interview went well, and a day later, the recruiter reached out to me and said, “Have you heard back?” I said, “No, but I thought the interview went well.” Then I called up and spoke to the CEO. He said, “Oh, we just came back from fundraising, and unfortunately, with only the six of us, we don’t know what to do with an international student.” I said, “Is that the only reason you’re not making me an offer?” He said yes. I said, “Why don’t I take that off your plate? I’ll figure out the immigration part of it myself.” He said an offer would be out soon.

I started there. We grew the company and got investment from Microsoft. It was great. And then, six months later, when I found a law firm for immigration, they surprised me with the check, taking the initiative. They said, “Hey, we’ll just give you a bonus to cover all the lawyer costs.” This was very surprising and very thoughtful. But what it actually shaped for me is how you identify people who are excited and eager to be on board. How do you take a chance on folks, and how do you grow them to be successful? That has stuck with me all throughout.

Joseph: I love that. I think it’s so important when you recruit people; I don’t want to say it’s easy, but it’s easier to teach people a functional skill. It’s harder to teach them cultural or relationship skills. There’s this book that I talk about a lot called The Southwest Way. It’s about how Southwest Airlines recruits people to the airline, and they talk about recruiting for two skills. It’s a technical competency. Do you know how to fly the airplane? That’s really important. But you can teach someone to fly an airplane. And the second thing they always look for is what they call the relationship or relationship competency, which is what are those important core cultural values? And I think that by finding people with the same cultural values, you can teach them the functional stuff and invest in that much more easily. Finding someone who is excited and wants to get stuff done and takes the initiative — those are core cultural values that, Nari, I know you have a ton of. And I think finding those types of people that marry that is, I think, key to scaling any organization, whether it’s the Happy Team or just the overall company. And I think those are two great lessons. Now, last question.

Joseph: Hernan, when we were doing this prep, we were talking about your dog. Tell us about your dog.

Hernan: Yeah, yeah. So I’m a proud parent of a nine-year-old diva Siberian Husky named Chilly. And oftentimes in a walk, she’ll get a compliment. And I just think she knows that she’s a beautiful dog because it’s a pretty common —

Joseph: Never a diva dog. I love it.

Hernan: It’s pretty common for someone to compliment her when I’m walking her. And she has these beautiful ice blue eyes and resembles — a lot in many ways — a wolf. So, I think it definitely leaves an impression on people. But we adopted her before my first human daughter was born. So she introduced us to, again, kind of that grown-up parenting and waking up and making sure that you’re at home at a certain time. So yeah, we’re very lucky to have her. But yeah, that’s Chilly.

Joseph: That’s great. Huskies are this really unique dog. I mean, you named your dog Chilly. They love to be in the cold.

Hernan: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Joseph: As I’ve learned — I think I mentioned to you earlier — we’d taken a trip, we went to Finland, and they have dog sledding. And I was a little nervous about it because I’m like, okay, is this a nice thing for the dogs and stuff? But one, they love being outside. There were hundreds of huskies at this place, and they have houses for them to sleep in at night — and it’s like negative 20, by the way. It’s really cold. And they sleep outside in the snow because they prefer that to their houses. And when it gets too warm, they actually don’t like to run. It’s like they just like to run when it’s cold. And they’re such beautiful, beautiful dogs. Amazing dogs. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, thank you both. Thank you both for spending time, sharing some stories, wisdom, and anecdotes. Like I said, on behalf of everyone at Gladly, we’re just super excited to be partners with you and the whole team and excited for what’s to come in the future. So, thank you both.

Hernan: Appreciate you and your team, Joseph. Thanks. Thanks so much for the opportunity.

Joseph: Appreciate it. All right. Take care.